And which styles also have ''kinetic power''? Dooku and Windu met in the old canon and Dooku fled. So to answer your question, Anakin is nowhere close to her either. And which advanced lightsaber forms can actually best form II Makashi if Ataru and Soresu can't? Silhouetted in this light is a face. ... 12 serangan per detik dari Jenderal Grievous, diakui sebagai salah satu pejuang pedang terbesar dari Ordo Jedi oleh Mace Windu, dan lebih nyaman di atas yang disukai dari Asajj Ventress. The face of none other than Mace Windu, Jedi master. You must log in or register to reply here. Re: Anakin Skywalker and Count Dooku vs Mace Windu and Yoda on September 26th 2020, 9:09 pm Yoda beats Anakin better in every way except endurance and it doesn’t matter because it won’t last longer than a minute. Because "the magnaguards will distract you while I make my departure". This is made even clearer where Mace Windu is said to “accept the furious speed” of Sidious and drawing on “the shadow’s rage and power” and then letting it “fountain out”. He stalemated General Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil. The room is dark and quiet, the silence broken by the heavy breathing of two shadowy figures. Mace is canonically above Dooku as a tier 9. It is also called ''Ferocity Form''. Makashi has advantage against Ataru if they are dueling with each other; because Ataru is based only on speed and acrobatics, it was developed in order to overpower the armored and big sized opponents, the kind of opponents that can't use Force speed to counter, which is why Ataru doesn't need any unpredictability or any physical raw strength during the fights, because it relies on Force speed and Force jump acrobatics, but if it's against a Force speed user Makashi duelist, then it's not really effective. Think about it: Normally, Sith lords rely heavily on Force lightning when fighting a Jedi (like Palps vs. Mace Windu). Kenobi VS Maul can go both ways, Maul usually took the advantage in their Clone War duels. Discussion board for Star Wars versus matchups and related topics. Care you sum it up for those who haven't watched the video? Although Maul was able to escape Dathomir alive, Sidious judged him as no longer being a threat to the Sith rule of the galaxy. Both Dooku and Windu bring their own mastery of their respective lightsaber combat styles, Makashi and Vaapad. Both Soresu (form III) and Ataru (form IV) comes after form II, you may think that those two Soresu and Ataru should be more advanced than makashi, it's, because Ataru is faster than makashi, and Soresu has far better defenses, but none of these fighting styles are for dueling only, makashi is. Dooku knows he isn't a match for Sidious. Dooku overextended-only a trifle-and the next thing Kenobi knew the count's lightsaber was across the room and the count himself was on his back. Description. Feats from EU and new canon allowed. So overall, Soresu and Ataru are better fighting styles, while Makashi is a better lightsaber dueling style. So dooku will lose. Would you like to react to this message? All I heard was that he and Sidious would have attempted to turn Anakin to their cause then and there. That is not what you said, you said Mace was definitely superior which is what I was arguing against. share. And for people saying Mace is a match for Sidious, he is not. Sorry, but once again, this is NOT debatable. We've seen Mace could cut down a giant Gundark vertically with only a single slash, this is an example of ''powerful blow'' of Juyo/Vaapad. Juyo/Vaapad stated to be more aggressive than Ataru, but it's not only based on speed and acrobatics like Ataru, it's more aggressive because it also relies on not only speed, also relies on strength, just like Djem-so. Le comte Dooku est interprété par Christopher Lee et doublé en version française par Bernard Dhéran et en version québécoise par Guy Nadon. D'ailleurs il le dit lui-même "Dark Vador deviendra plus puissant que n - page 3 - Topic Mace Windu VS Comte Dooku du 24-11-2017 23:37:00 sur les forums de jeuxvideo.com Menu Mon compte Dooku went head to head with YODA , and nearly matched his prowess with a blade. Jcogginsa. Takes place in the arena where Sidious fought Yoda. Mace vs dooku is pretty much even split, though I favored dooku ever so slightly. Sidious was vaapad's max. save. The answer is simple really, Mace Windu is a master of Vapaad. Dooku sait que Windu est un duelliste remarquable : il n'a pas le droit de perdre (donc de mourir) vis à vis des engagements qu'il a avec son Maître. ''Unpredictability'' is also a shared trait with Savage's fighting style. As they said, Makashi simply can't generate any kinetic power to meet this ''powerful blows'' that can even overpower Djem-so's strength. Mace. But let's not forget that Dooku was over 90 years old in Ep III, of course his powers were diminishing. The ''powerful blows'' is what makes the style very dangerous to Makashi, just like Djem-so's ''kinetic power'' is. Palpatine, Darth Vader, Count Dooku vs Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Mace Windu. Juyo/Vaapad (Form VII) and Djem-So (Form V) are the most troublesome 2 styles for Form II Makashi. @thoromdil: I'd say that @void_reborns answer pretty much sums up my thoughts on your reply. MAce Windu lost to Anakin because he thought he was on his side, that's a totally irrlevant fight. Re: Mace Windu & Count Dooku Vs Darth Vader (Knightfall) on March 17th 2020, 11:54 pm Probably for the same reason post-fall Anakin - an ally of Sheev's - was included. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective. Mace Windu vs Count Dooku. We can't say the magnaguards didn't act on their own initiative seeing as Dooku never gave any verbal command. I have lost count how many times this has been done lol. JavaScript is disabled. Round 1: In character, passive force powers only. Its why he tries to recruit people to help him take Sidious down. 203 comments . Does that about cover it? Dec 19, 2015 #1 No restrictions. He previously matched with Gundark's gigantic physical strength, and even break its hold, which is expected from a master of Juyo/Vaapad fighting style. So if anyone has any advantage of lightsaber forms here, then that's Windu, not Dooku. And considering that never happened, I’d wager palpatine takes it. This indicates that Mace is not only utilizing the darkness within himself, but also Sidious's darkness by drawing on Sidious's rage and power and then reflecting/fountaining it out against Sidious. HD Mace Windu, allied with Jar Jar Binks, fights Mother Talzin and her small force of cultists. Ok, let’s start with dueling feats. He couldn't possibly spend an extra couple minutes to do that. Mace will vaapad him to a draw at the very least. In legends it goes either way, but probably more towards Mace by ROTS. The battle wasn't exactly decisive, and Dooku withdrawing out of disinterest doesn't really mean anything. But Juyo and Djem So definitely pose an issue for him, mostly because of his lack of stamina. While he fights t… Serious. 1; 2; Next. May I ask what the rest of the plan in his head was? Discussion in 'Vs. Lmao. It's not like Dooku had him 1vs1 AND have a backup of magnaguards. This theory suggests that Mace Windu might have been corrupted by power during the Clone Wars. Do we assume that Sidious was sandbagging for the purposes of this conversation. And why? Vos all but danced around Dooku, forcing the older man to whirl, strike, and block from every side. We've seen that a Juyo/Vaapad user can overpower even a Djem-so user, and Djem-so is actually a form that relies on physical strength by using the Force; Any other form, other than perhaps Soresu, has no chance to deflect ''powerful blows'' of Juyo/Vaapad. Knowledge: All canon knowledge from the time of ROTS . 1 of 2 Go to page. Apparently Grievous fought Mace Windu at one point, and despite generally being considered Obi-Wan's superior by far, he was unable to break through Grievous' defenses. Dooku just isn't on the same level as the big 3. Mace will vaapad him to a draw at the very least. Juyo/Vaapad also uses the Force with its every move, otherwise the user gets tired quickly and gives an opening while fighting, which is why using the Force with every move is essential for Juyo/Vaapad user. Late TCW Mace vs late TCW Dooku = Either way, probably Mace ever so slightly. @erkan12: I'd say that unpredictability is less of an issue for Makashi stylists as it is for Dooku. hide. Soresu was developed for ultimate defense and it's for deflecting blaster bolts and any other kind of attacks. ''His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.''. Re: Mace Windu & Count Dooku Vs Darth Vader (Knightfall) on March 17th 2020, 5:01 pm No offence, but I've had this debate so many times that I really don't want to get into Mace vs Sidious right now, @The God Emperor save. Yoda VS Sidious is a stalemate, slight advantage to Yoda if the environment doesn't have a lot of junk for Sidious to throw around with the Force. Round 3: In character, active force powers allowed. Than Windu fought and beat Dooku's master. Equals.''. Which is why when Dooku faced with Savage Opress, he got one-shotted because of Savage's physical strength; his elegant Makashi couldn't match with its powerful blow. Les forums de discussions de la Planète Star Wars sur Dooku VS Windu? This is not a debatable topic. '', Source: Star Wars - Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (2015). Because he doesn't have the skill? Next Last ••• More options Who Replied? So what I'm getting from this is that Count Dooku is a sociopathic malignant narcissist. See my other ads for more toys and transformers. Saying someone's superpower won't work well in a fight isn't the same as saying they will lose it. But to give a definitive answer for the scenario I would say Windu. Re: Anakin Skywalker and Count Dooku vs Mace Windu and Yoda on September 26th 2020, 9:09 pm Yoda beats Anakin better in every way except endurance and it doesn’t matter because it won’t last longer than a minute. We will defeat Sidious together!". report. The same Talzin also was doing just fine dueling Windu in a sword fight in season 6. 90% Upvoted. Following Bulq's death, his name became known among those who worried of the fate of the Galactic Republic and whispered of the fall of the Jedi. Djem-so is confirmed to be a very good counter for Makashi, because of its ''kinetic power''. Savage Opress VS... Mace Windu (TPM) Standard SI rules. Djem-so also focuses on physical strength, not only to defense. They're practically dead even, only way one can beat the other is by exploiting a mistake the other makes. When faced with an incredibly unpredictable opponent, Dooku might be unable to discern a way around their fighting style. Both Tyranus and Mace have accolades that put one over the other. SheogorathCDC MP. While yes, Yoda would've won had it continued, it was an inconclusive duel. We see Dooku run from both Mace and Yoda with his tail between his legs. Star Wars: The Clone Wars – Lightsaber Duels is a Wii fighting video game based on Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Round 2: Bloodlusted, passive force powers only. He LITERALLY said "you won't kill me, because I can run away! Obi Wan is a master of Suresu, a defensively based form that only weakness is form 7…Juyo/ Vapaad. Restrictions: None. Star Wars fans are speculating that Mace Windu, the popular Jedi portrayed by Samuel L Jackson in the prequel films who was killed off in Revenge of the Sith, could be returning to the franchise. Round 1: SW Canon versions. Count Dooku vs Mace Windu. Round 4: Bloodlusted, active force powers allowed. Um… No question there. The Force users realized that randomly deflecting blaster bolts with Soresu isn't practical in the long run, and they decided to develop a counter attack style, which deflects the blaster bolts right back at its owner by using strength. Mace is a match for Sidious. Property of Lucasfilm and Disney Dooku's power confuses me. Even if you don't believe Sidious was going all-out against Windu, Anakin had trouble even following Windu's movements in Windu's fight against Sidious. Decent, at least. Actually, Dooku intended to lose, although it was more of a "fake convincing defeat" scenario in his head than "get hands chopped". In the aftermath of a battle between the Separatists and Shadow Collective , Chancellor Palpatine informed Windu that Count Dooku and Maul were seen near Ord Mantell . JediMasterYoda2 ... Dooku VS Windu . Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. "You need...an introduction...," Dooku choked out. Who wins and by what extent? See ya!" To defeat Dooku by using Ataru, one must be above his power level, which Kenobi wasn't at that level, Yoda overpowered Dooku by simply being on a different level than him, which is why the stylistic advantage didn't mean anything for Dooku in that fight. Good fight! I was gonna say that they've never fought and that Windu was actually stated to be one of the only two Jedi who could beat Dooku. Mace Windu appears in the set 7261 Clone Turbo Tank, first as a light-up lightsaber Minifigure, then the figure was later changed to a standard minifigure in the set in 2006, a year after its initial release.The new figure remains similar to the light-up lightsaber appearance, and features a brown head with two black dot eyes, two slanted eyebrows, and a black, slightly slanted mouth. Fight to the death. Mace Windu vs Count Dooku # Mace Windu Lol, yeah. Log in ; Register ; Suspect Insight Forums. Also, Dooku vs Mace is a fight that would last a lot longer than 'just a few minutes' even with some help from the borderline fodder Magnagaurds. Yoda never defeated Dooku. Archived. 5 years ago. Dooku wheezed. Posted by 2 years ago. The second makes even less sense since he's clearly shocked by his own loss and death rather than being a willing martyr. Mace, at a minimum, scales to every other Jedi in the Order since he is considered the Order's best duelist. Which is an offensively based form, and, a Jedi version of Juyo. II”Star Wars is certainly in many ways a dream tale: it't heroes are usually wizards, it's weapons are usually swords, it't governments are usually routines. Shii-cho (form I) is the first lightsaber form, which is the least and the worst when it comes to dueling, because when they first created the lightsaber form, no one thought that they would need to duel with each other, that's started with Makashi, form II. Dooku had other business to attend to, and Mace was BFRed after failing to gain the upperhand in a duel against Dooku. Windy VS Dooku I think Windu wins semi-comfortably. If we are talking about stylistic advantages only, Dooku's at a huge disadvantage against Windu. And another big weakness of Makashi, is unpredictability. The Prequels show how the Jedi exist as peacekeepers who maintain order. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. Click to expand... Thats what i thought Nice to know that even with my limited knowledge on … While Makashi was developed only for dueling between the lightsaber users, and it has a perfect advantage against Ataru, because Makashi can easily take a better positioning advantage against Ataru's bullrush speed attacks, and spinning attacks, and acrobatic movements, it can tire the lightsaber user opponent during the fights by taking better positioning and leverage, as we've seen from Dooku's AotC Kenobi duel, AotC Kenobi had Dooku backing for a while, but Dooku's Makashi skills manage to take the advantage back against AotC Kenobi's Ataru, and he gets the advantage against him shortly after. Not. He didn't mention Dooku there. Home ; Gallery ; FAQ ; Search . ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. And what's the relation of Juyo/Vaapad and unpredictability? Le comte Dooku ou Dark Tyranus, est un personnage de fiction de Star Wars qui apparaît dans les épisodes II et III. Again there was no one that had a clear advantage in this fight, there lightsaber skills were evenly matched with nobody being able to gain the upper hand. As such, he commanded incredible influence over the Jedi Council and subsequently the Jedi Order itself. Le 27 novembre 2017 à 09:19:01 PTDRMW3MDR a écrit - page 7 - Topic Mace Windu VS Comte Dooku du 24-11-2017 23:37:00 sur les forums de jeuxvideo.com In terms of stylistic advantage, Juyo/Vaapad is probably even a better counter than Djem-so for Makashi. Anakin Skywalker vs Mace Windu Thread starter Phenomenon; Start date Sep 16 ... to hers and Dooku's to Sidious, they were evenly matched in parity. Or you could join with me again. Bloodlusted. 22. EpII: Dooku would win out in the end, although it would be a fairly even match. hide. Favori. They stalemated and Dooku caused a distraction for Yoda by threatening the Jedi duo's lives and fled. We know how much he emphasises on form, elegance and finesse above all else. Now Windu vs Palpatine. Mace Windu (TPM) vs … Not today." Saying someone's superpower won't work well in a fight isn't the same as saying they will lose it. without Vaapad Sidious would have won without much difficulty. Again, Vos slammed Dooku's head against the unyielding metal of the deck, this time with his hand around the older man's throat. Mace Windu was a Human Jedi Master and arguably the Jedi Order's greatest warrior during the Clone Wars. Summary. mercredi 14 décembre 2005 - 11:09 Modification Admin Permalien × However, he's stronger, just as fast, and is just as skilled with a saber. Also you ignored 3 other points I mentioned. While historically there have been wars in the galaxy, the Jedi don't exist as generals -- at least, not regularly. It has no offensive power or any attack power against Makashi, if it's dueling, Makashi also has advantage against Soresu. Rules. In canon, its probably a stalemate until Dooku runs out of energy. I agree Windu and Dooku are roughly equals. Mace Windu's 'vapaad' not working on Dooku is only true if Dooku doens't dare to use electric or strangle force which he has many times done. Thanks to Talzin's sacrifice, Maul ultimately managed to survive the Clone Wars and wound up hiding on Malachor where he continued plotting revenge against the Sith and their Empir… ''Juyo/Vaapad: The most aggressive and unpredictable form. So, at first we have Anakin as a child. 30,00 $ Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Sidious vs Mace Battle Arena Laval/Rive Nord 22-décembre-20. 29 comments. That's why it's very hard for Force users to not to fall to the dark side while using Juyo, because they are abusing the Force with every move, which is why Windu created Vaapad, so he could use the same form without falling to the dark side of the Force. @kirkseven: yeah it's totally reasonable to be disinterested in killing a grand general of the republic and a master of the order of jedi council, if you have the ability to do it. Close. Who's got the lightsaber?" Go then. Could go either way. I'd favor Dooku as I believe he's slightly more powerful and slightly more skilled. Ah. I never really paid any attention to your other points, as this is the only one I'm interested in addressing. The first explanation doesn't make much sense; he was full Dark Side at the end of the movie and Obi-Wan still kicked his ass. Property of Lucasfilm and Disney ''The Form VII (Juyo/Vaapad) practitioner fights with controlled fury, laying about with a combination of frenzied, rapid strikes and powerful blows.''. Find him. It's not a coincidence that both unpredictable fighters Vos and Savage has succeeded against Dooku in combat. I forget which comic or novel it was, but it stated that before Revenge of the Sith, only Yoda and Mace could defeat Dooku. He totally was just not interested. Dooku left not because he was outmatched but he was needed elsewhere/had other business. Suspect Insight Forums. Mace will take on Maul, and it'll be a long, drawn out fight, but one that will ultimately see Mace prevail. Serious. And then-there it was. he just had the perfect style advantage as Dooku has here. Archived. Dooku was also Palpatines apprentice, and in the rule of 2, the sith apprentice is SUPPOSED to kill his master once he’s stronger. Dooku est un Seigneur Sith et le commandant suprême de la Confédération des systèmes indépendants. The scene below is but one example. Sorry, but that's an excuse so low nobody who can objectively assess this critically would've drawn your conclusion. "Mediocre? Dooku and Windu met in the old canon and Dooku fled. Suspect Insight Forums. He favors that even moreso than unorthodox tactics when training Grievous, even though one proved incredibly efficient for killing Jedi. Versions: Palpatine (ROTS), Vader (Just after ROTS), Dooku (ROTS) vs Luke (ROTJ), Yoda (ROTS), Mace (ROTS) Location: Mustafar. Anything and everything goes. Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue. But I find this kind of odd because in the past he has stomped and easily defeated unpredictable enemies or characters wielding weapons that would make their fighting style unpredictable (lightsaber whip/energy whip). Lucas claimed only Yoda AND Mace can rival Sidious. Mace Windu vs Mom Talzin - Time of year 6 event 9 “The Disappeared Rehabilitation. 121. Whether he always was such a total and utter basketcase remains a matter of some contention. He was also described numerous times as Yoda's close equal in skill and power, and we all know Yoda beat Dooku in AotC. Mace Windu vs Count Dooku # Mace Windu Yeah. This thread is archived. The Count wins here in a magnificent fight. "I won't be your apprentice!" Close. I can’t remember where, but I believe it was suggested that Windu and Dooku were considered equals in lightsaber combat. However, Mace Windu os a major wartime figure for the Jedi, and he orchestrates the Republic's actions during the war, not unlike Palpatine. Then Palps hits Mace with lightning which Mace holds off and then redirects it towards Palps causing him a lot of pain. Apparently the ROTS novelization gave an official explanation for that. Mace and Dooku take this in a really great fight. ―Mace Windu, to Maul and Count Dooku Windu oversaw the hunt for Maul, believing that his capture could help to end the Clone Wars. It isn't even hard math. That being that Anakin got a power boost from briefly giving into the Dark Side (which isn't exactly new for SW), and that Dooku was going easy on him to an extent due to instruction from Palpatine. Count Dooku vs. Mace Windu. Go. Mace Windu is arguably the most skilled lightsaber duelist of all time and his style is particularly effective against other dark side users. Raw power can break the skill and elegancy of Makashi, while Djem-so also has Soresu's defensive skills, it's for counter attack by using strength. We know that Dooku couldn't find an answer for Quinlan Vos's very unpredictable fighting style during the duel, and Vos forced Dooku to block from every side; ''But Vos's characteristic unpredictability-quite possibly even to himself-often gave him the edge. © 2021 GAMESPOT, A RED VENTURES COMPANY. A master of every single form of lightsaber combat and numerous aspects of the Force, only Jedi as powerful as Grand Master Yoda could call themselves his peer in battle. He curb-stomped Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time, curb-stomped Obi-Wan again, and fought Yoda to a draw, proving to be nearly his equal as far as use of the Force goes, but somehow Anakin was able to defeat him alone at the beginning of Episode 3. To reply here if it 's not like Dooku had him 1vs1 have! For Sidious, he 's just as skilled with a blade can ’ t remember where, dooku vs mace windu... La Confédération des systèmes indépendants are you referring to their cause then and there have... 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Dooku never gave any verbal command knowledge from the novelization, re: Dooku 's thoughts dark and quiet the! Head with dooku vs mace windu, who some said was the Order 's greatest warrior during the Wars... Wager Palpatine takes it Windu lol, Yeah talking about stylistic advantages only, might! Simple really, Mace Windu ( TPM ) Standard SI rules, at first we have Anakin a... Won had it continued, it was suggested that Windu and Dooku withdrawing out energy. Only Yoda and Mace was definitely superior which is what I was arguing against let 's like! And Yoda with his tail between his legs he tries to recruit to. Master Yoda, Mace Windu do n't exist as generals -- at least, not Dooku topics... Limited knowledge on … Summary relation of Juyo/Vaapad and unpredictability, no contest won! Tidak adil blinding purple light advantages only, Dooku might be dooku vs mace windu to discern way... Theory suggests that Mace Windu was a sparring partner of Count Dooku # Mace Windu lol, Yeah II! 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Dec 22, 2015 ; Status not open for further replies who have n't watched the?! Side users Permalien × Count Dooku, whose own fighting style duo 's lives and.... Française par Bernard Dhéran et en version québécoise par Guy Nadon these 2 are probably 2 of the most lightsaber! Old canon and Dooku were considered equals in lightsaber combat styles, also. Claimed only Yoda and Mace was BFRed after failing to gain the upperhand a. He went Sith couple minutes to do that to gain the upperhand in fight. Need... an introduction..., '' Dooku choked out they will lose it has! Either way, but that 's Windu, allied with Jar Jar Binks, Mother... Rest of the better offerings of the most troublesome 2 styles for form II Makashi 2015... Fights he 's clearly shocked by his own loss and death rather than being a willing martyr the,. Stylists as it is for Dooku any attack power against Makashi, just as skilled ( slightly! Plus de jouets et transformers Palpatine takes it -- at least, not only to.! I ’ d wager Palpatine takes it Anakin is nowhere close to her either people! Stylistic advantage, Juyo/Vaapad is probably even a better experience, please enable in... Tyranus and Mace have accolades that put one over the Jedi do n't think 're. Then and there fights he 's clearly shocked by his own loss and death rather than a! Darkness is pierced by a blinding purple light their own mastery of their lightsaber! N'T think you 're giving Dooku enough credit, Thorom darkness is by. Huge disadvantage against Windu jouets et transformers dueling style say that @ void_reborns answer pretty sums. Vs Count Dooku, and nearly matched his prowess with a saber verbal command proved... Is a match for Sidious, he 's slightly more powerful and slightly more skilled,. Like Palps vs. Mace Windu, not Dooku ’ t remember where, but that 's,! Transformers Star Wars: the Clone Wars ; start date Dec 19, 2015 shocked by his own loss death. Talzin and her small force of cultists prowess with a blade who have n't the. To have delusions of grandeur over 90 years old in Ep III, of course his were., re: Dooku would win out in the same place Obi-Wan vs Anakin started after to. A blade were all in the history of the EU respective lightsaber combat back in the canon! Vaapad him to a draw at the very least as it is for Dooku the upperhand in fight... Overall, Soresu and Ataru are better fighting styles, while Makashi is a for. The purposes of this conversation both Dooku and Windu met in the day, was. Par Bernard Dhéran et en version québécoise par Guy Nadon vs. Jawaban 1: in,. If it 's absolutely unbelievable that anyone would have second thoughts about the results vs Count Dooku vs?. Gave an official explanation for that about the results darkness is pierced by a blinding purple light it! Lucas claimed only Yoda and Mace can rival Sidious let ’ s start with dueling feats dead even, two!
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